Heaven and Hell, pt. 2

Separation from Gods people (not just God) is hell:

“And the Lord said unto Cain, Where is Abel your brother? And he said, I know not; am I my brother’s keeper? And he said, What have you done? The voice of your brother’s blood cries unto me from the ground. And now you shall be cursed from the earth which has opened her mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand. When you till the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto you her strength. A fugitive and a vagabond shall you be in the earth. And Cain said unto the Lord, Satan tempted me because of my brother’s flocks, and I was angry also, for his offering you did accept and not mine. My punishment is greater than I can bear.” — Gen 3:10

This is an interesting story because if you recall Cain was never truly alone after he became a fugitive and vagabond. People followed him and he built his own city (v. 11)

So how was he a vagabond? 

He was separated from God’s people.

Another example: 

“And it came to pass that the beggar died and was carried of the angels into Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And in hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and saw Abraham afar off and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and likewise, Lazarus evil things, but now he is comforted and you are tormented. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed so that they who would pass from here to you cannot, neither can they pass to us that would come from there.” — Luke 9:20

Notice Abraham wasn’t highlighting the gulf between God and the rich man (although that was evident, too). He was highlighting the gulf between the rich man and those in Abraham’s bosom - God’s people.

But there’s good news! There’s an antithesis to this!

Reconciliation to God and His people is Heaven!:

“Therefore, Alma did rejoice exceedingly to see his brethren; and what added more to his joy — they were still his brethren in the Lord. Yea, and they had waxed strong in the knowledge of the truth, for they were men of a sound understanding, and they had searched the scriptures diligently that they might know the word of God.” - Alma 12:1

“And it came to pass that as Ammon was going forth into the land, that he and his brethren met Alma, over in the place of which has been spoken; and behold, this was a joyful meeting. Now the joy of Ammon was so great, even that he was full; yea, he was swallowed up in the joy of his God, even to the exhausting of his strength, and he fell again to the earth. Now was not this exceeding joy? Behold, this is joy which none receiveth, save it be the truly penitent and humble seeker of happiness. Now the joy of Alma in meeting his brethren was truly great, and also the joy of Aaron, of Omner, and Himni.” - Alma 15:6

“And the Lord said unto Enoch, Then shall you and all your city meet them there, and we will receive them into our bosom. And they shall see us, and we will fall upon their necks, and they shall fall upon our necks, and we will kiss each other; and there shall be my abode.” - Gen 4:22

If there’s any question at all whether you’re reconciled to those in Heaven or Hell - on earth or beyond - just call to mind Jesus’ shared instruction here:

“Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.”

It’s impossible to approach the Lord with full purpose of heart while also having unsettled business with one of His children, too.


Comments

  1. Ryan RMarch 15, 2026 at 6:08 PM

    Posted in "That We Be One", Adrian's blog, Peace in Paradise, TBM Blog, Face Toward Zion, Anonymous Bishop, Bare Record, and The Light Leads (Becoming One) and thought I would try to post here:

    A follow up to ___’s “What the heck is going on here lately?!” post, I guess I’m wondering the same [because of how quiet it has been]. But, to make the question more specific, I’ve been thinking about the Mousetrap talk. I plan to listen to it again today.

    On Dec 20, Denver said this was his most important talk and it would look different in a few months. Well, it’s been a few months. That was more or less the Winter solstice. We’re coming up on the Spring equinox. I’d say that qualifies as a few months, but I’m not sure the talk looks different to me. That’s why I want to re-listen.

    I’m just wondering if it looks different to anyone else?

    I’d love to pose that question more generally to the whole Covenant Christian body, but there doesn’t seem to be a good way to do that. I don’t have much visibility into these other places, wherever they are.

    I can look on Adrian’s blog, but there hasn’t been much activity there. I know there’s a Slack space, but I think that’s only for the women. I think there’s an email thing, but I think that’s only for the women. I guess I can reach out to people individually, but I’m not sure where I would start and what the point would be.

    So, I can pose the question here and I’m certainly interested in responses here. But, this is a pretty small sample size. The Covenant Christians don’t seem to be much of a body. More like disembodied parts. A hand here, a leg there, maybe an ear or a nose. But, not really a body.

    I can’t help but feel a bit sad about this.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. AnonymousMarch 16, 2026 at 5:09 AM

      Hi, Ryan. I have some thoughts what he meant. Out of curiosity, what do you think he meant (both before and after you listened to the talk again) and what are you hoping the people take away from the talk?

      - Jeff

      Delete
    2. Ryan RMarch 16, 2026 at 6:55 PM

      Hi Jeff - Thanks for your response. And I have to apologize (I suppose to the blog author) for spamming this blog with something that doesn't directly relate to the post. I likewise spammed other blogs and also posted in a couple of places on Facebook.

      Anyway, I have to say that listening to it again impacted me more or less the same way as back in December. I'm struggling to get a grasp on what has happened over the last 7 years, because while I've been following the movement since the 10 talks, I have kind of been doing my own thing in my own family for the last 7 years. But, I've felt like it's time for me to re-engage.

      So, I only have rough ideas of things that have happened and the challenges we're facing. With that said, the following really stood out to me this time around:

      "...We want to go to Zion, get to Zion, see Zion, and we wrongly think anything or anyone that delays our determination to get that accomplished is of the devil. We fall prey to the misconception that someone else is delaying our achievement, when the fault lies inside of us.... We lack the character to be led gently and gradually in character development, choosing instead to be trapped into thinking our fellow Covenant Christians are hindering us. If you can think of the person, or people you blame the most for preventing us from achieving Zion, then you have identified who you need most to learn to love. You won’t ever go to Zion without them. Unless you are of one heart and one mind with them, you are unfit for Zion. Let that idea remind you of just how unlikely it is for us to escape the devil’s perfect mousetrap designed for us...."

      And then couple that with the following:

      "...We engage in the process of persuasion, but may frequently fall short of persuading. When our efforts fall short of persuading, we have no authority structure that allows us to impose an outcome on others. Failing to persuade is to be expected. No artificial deadline that appeals to a vote can ever remedy the failure to persuade...."

      This reminds me of the April 2018 letter posted on Recorder's Clearinghouse. One group (the authors) saw another group as hindering the process of being obedient to God. The language of the letter lays blame on the group that was seen as hindering the process. I think these two excerpts from the Mousetrap talk don't leave any excuse for such a course of action.

      In our haste to do something that we believed constituted being obedient to the Lord, it seems to me that we broke the more important commandment. Perhaps the statement of principles was irrelevant and the real test went completely over our heads. I think there's a very real possibility that this is the case.

      Delete
    3. AnonymousMarch 17, 2026 at 3:46 AM

      Definitely lessons learned and hopefully wisdom acquired.

      There are Covenant Christian’s who love each other and practice good principles among themselves. I’m grateful they’re out there, that they’re participating, and it’s good to see the fruit they’re producing.

      Also glad to hear you’ve decided to recently re-engage with your fellowship community and wish you well.

      PS - this post seemed befitting for your comment. Thank you.

      - Jeff

      Delete
    4. AnonymousApril 15, 2026 at 5:51 PM

      Ryan, did you see this from this last weekend? I thought of your comments as I watched it.

      - Jeff

      https://www.youtube.com/live/bLXe1396q-o?si=S4OJvpf8w-Oja72W

      Delete

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